Rehunt for Red September? (because October is days away)

Posted by Andrew Bailey in General on the Big Photo Hunt community board, .

To begin with, I understand that financial support is the lifeblood of any site. And I’m not writing this to give Ken any grief. Let's be clear: I love what he’s doing and believe his intention is admirable in every respect. For that to go forward, this endeavor needs our support. It has to have it. Understood.

But—and isn’t there always one of those lurking about?—there’s a feature I’ve never used that recently caught my eye. And it has a problem attached: The “Rehunt” button.

What is it? It puts your work back in play once in a given week. On its face, this is a great idea for those of us who schedule an early post, as encouraged by the system. It allows us to make sure, sensibly later in the week, that our work isn’t buried under later posts. And the "once per week" limitation keeps the hyper-competitive from gumming up the intent. The button even goes inactive when the week of its debut ends. Super idea.

Oh, right. That “but” I started to note: It's a subscribers-only feature.

Why is this a problem? Whenever you put a scale, a standard, or a number in play, it begins a ranking process. It sorts an impression of value among participants and offerings, as assigned values always will. Photographers will see their work alongside others and feel additional, comparative confidence, or disappointment, especially the newer among us, depending on that outcome.

It's just human nature. Again, heightened among those who don’t have their feet or confidence set. And even among some who will, but who aren’t immune to the +/- of a popularity contest.

When any group can put their thumb on that scale, and influence that number in a way not open to others, it undermines the sense of a community of equals, invites the thought that the system is gamed, that an advantage is enjoyed that has meaning within the community. However well-intentioned, money now buys you twice the exposure and likelihood of being noticed and encouraged.

Buying visibility is very different from buying more gallery room or a different color banner (I’ll come to that). It lends an impression of skill or appreciation that wasn't born from equal footing and opportunity. A bad idea, I think, however unintended.

Is there a restorative compromise? Maybe, and here comes the banner bit. You could have different tiers of participation noted by color. Maybe a yellow banner for contributors and a blue one for those who can’t contribute financially, or are still deciding if this place is for them. Note the number of their contributed photos, maybe. Any number of ways to let everyone know their likes or comments are coming from committed and/or seasoned members of the photography family here.

The advantage of a color system is that it recognizes the perk and transparently adjusts expectations. If you’re a blue member, you’re only getting one bite at the “consider this” apple. Your numbers will likely reflect that, and you’re better off comparing them with the other blue numbers/members. It might even make the yellow members pay closer attention to your work, nudging you toward joining their ranks.

Sure, it’s a caste system, but it’s an honest one. As things stand at present (and again, I have no doubt this was done without any misleading or bad intent), the notice is rigged, and the system of encouragement is compromised. That’s going to dawn on people once they stick around a while. And they probably won't like it. I don’t want anything to spoil the experience here, if I can help it, which is the only reason I'm bringing this to the table.

What do you think?

Replies

Scott Peterson on

I've been pretty active on BFH but haven't joined yet but will eventually. Fortunately I've been able to make the top 10 several times without the rehunt button. I upvote lots of photos but only ones that I feel are worthy with a proper composition and lighting. I kind of wish there was two options to select. A "This is a top 10 worthy photo" and a "Nice but..." with an option to critique. I love watching the work of new photographers and seeing them grow but often they have crooked horizons, bad lighting or other minor issues that could be easily corrected so I don't vote for them. I also hate to come across as a snob and pick on their work because that's never my intention. Like @Andrew Bailey I'm older and have been doing this awhile. Heck, I started in the days of film so you had to understand proper exposure.

Just thinking out loud could you tier it and you graduate to the next level as you make more top 10's? Kind of like the English soccer leagues. I'm always brainstorming so sometimes I come up with crazy ideas. 😵‍💫

All the being said you've done a great job with this site @Ken Deckinger and I enjoy it greatly. I also really enjoy your podcasts. Any update on that search function yet so I can find people you interview? 😁

Stefan Crysell on

As a lurker and not a pro I actually like the system, I found this wonderful place through wanting to take myself a bit more serious and slowly grow my confidence in sharing work. I guess what im trying to say is I look at it like a battle of wits and trying to out fox the pro's. If i feel confident in my picture/edit and hopefully some of you do too it would naturally work and it seems to work. 🙌

Ken Deckinger on

Wow - I'm late to this party! 🤪

So first... Thanks for taking the time to write this out. It's nice to see this much thought go into a board post, and it's clear you care about this place. For that, I'm grateful.

You're right that financial support is what keeps the lights on here. It's basically just me running BPH, so that support matters more than I can say.

A little background on Rehunt - The feature was a fun idea I came up with about 10 months ago. It exists for the exact reason you described: photos posted early in the week can get buried. We don't have an algorithm at the moment. The feed is 100% chronological, so earlier posts naturally slide down. Rehunt is one of the perks for Pro members who help keep BPH running, and it's limited to once a week so nobody can flood the feed. It's also limited to Pro members for a practical reason: if everyone could Rehunt, nearly every photo would show up twice and the feed would get crowded and confusing fast.

Where I see it a bit differently: Rehunt gives a photo a second look, not a second upvote. It doesn't add upvotes or change how anything is counted. Every member still posts one photo a week, and every Upvote still comes from a member deciding that photo earned it.

I pulled the numbers to check that I wasn't (totally) crazy. Over the last 12 weeks of Top Ten photos (120 total), 15 had been Rehunted. Of those 15, 10 would have made the Top Ten anyway. The other 5 came from some of our strongest photographers, so it's hard to say whether Rehunt made the difference for them or not. So it's not zero, but it's small. The whole point of Big Photo Hunt is to be a welcoming place for amateur photographers to grow together. If the data showed Rehunt was tipping the scales, I'd pull it back or retool it.

I think what you're really saying though - if I'm hearing you correctly - is that it's uncomfortable having any feature that gives some members an advantage, or at least the appearance of one. Fair point. It's not intended that way, but it's clearly coming across that way to you, and maybe to others.

So the options range from removing it, to leaving it as is, to something in between that I haven't landed on yet. If you or anyone else has ideas, I'm all ears (I read the entire thread/replies so I've taken all of your suggestions in, so far). My goal is to make this place awesome so I take in and consider everything. Full stop.

On the color idea - it's something to consider. But, I've tried to stay away from that kinda thing. In my opinion, labeling members by whether they pay would create more of a divide, not less. Again though, creativity comes from ideas leading to ideas to leading to iterations of ideas so it's a good thought and one that I've logged.

I can also say a lot of new things are coming to Big Photo Hunt soon, and some of them may make this feature less important, or even moot. I won't know until they're out and we have some data.

In the meantime, I've found that the hardest thing about building this product is that not everything will please everybody all of the time. Lots of decisions need to be made that will make some people ecstatic and others not so much. But if a feature truly isn't working for the community, it should change or go. I'll keep an eye on this and keep thinking it through as I continue building the platform.

Feedback received loud and clear. Truly. So, it's now on my list/radar. Doesn't mean I can address it immediately because there are a gazillion "mission critical" things going on. It does however mean though that I'll make sure it's in my thought process as I figure out what to do next.

And I'm around as always if you have more!

:-)

Ken Deckinger on

@Scott Peterson thanks for your comments and feedback! Taking this into account and will make sure it's considered. Please keep your ideas coming. It's the best way to know what to improve! Very appreciative. :-)

The search feature is still on my list. Have something big rolling out soon. Once that’s done we’ll hop back onto everything we have been backed up on.

Ken Deckinger on

@Stefan Crysell thanks for your comment here! And your kind words. It's nice to know it resonates. :-)

Andrew Bailey on

@Ken Deckinger I think you understand my perspective and that I don't assign anything but the best of intentions on your part. And I appreciate your consideration and response.

I would differ this way: While rehunt doesn't inherently add votes, it adds the real opportunity for them. That 12%, statistically significant, might and should reflect some of that advantage, even with some qualifications you noted. Given most users don't or can't avail themselves of that opportunity, I wouldn't expect the rule to be otherwise.

There are just so many ways to parse this: How many of the weekly winners are multiple winners and what percent of those at some point used the larger exposure, and so on.

Anyway, as you know from seeing my remarks post this post, it's not slowing my interest or approach any. I hope it gets so busy you have to take up my idea about subcategories, etc.

Kudos on the joint, in the meantime. It and you are on my list of favorite surprises for the year.

Cheers.

Ken Deckinger on

@Andrew Bailey roger that on all! Thankful you're here! :-)

Sam Cooper on

Excellent insight. I hoped to use the “like” system as a way to gather feedback for what works or doesn’t work so I can continue to grow (or just share some shots I was proud to take in the last week); I understand the concept and competitiveness behind the system, however I’ve accepted I can’t have any meaningful metric for what or why my photos perform better or worse each week if I’m not playing competitively as well (e.g. was my photo bad? Was it bad in comparison to some really good photos? Did it immediately get buried?)

Ken Deckinger on

@Sam Cooper just wanted to chime in here to let you know (a) I agree with you 😎 and (b) we've been working on what I hope is a step towards a solution to your concerns. If all goes well it should launch as early as next week. When it does, you'll notice it so please let me know what you think. If you have questions, feedback, complaints, additional ideas, etc. *Please* let me know.

Thank you!

Nisah Cheatham on

As usual, your insights are thoughtful and on point.

I've thought about this as well. I was a Pro Member for a moment and realized that with the rehunt option in play, I would hit top ten practically every week. When I dropped back to a non-paying member, I realized that it is basically like paying to get ahead in line or to the top of a list. It also made me realize that posts really do get buried. If you are new here and have no connections, then your post on Monday isn't as likely to be seen later into the week.

Now, as to the color code - I see that as an interesting step. The added visibility isn't like a caste system, because you don't really get anything except "thoughts and feelings". I think that change AND making the rehunt button for all users could liven things up.

I want to support this site because, while I had my initial misgivings, it seems like the intent here is to build community with as little gamification as needed. SO - thoughts along the lines of what to offer Pro Members:

1 - Add the ability to comment and explain photos in the My Personal Gallery and then the perk of being able to share more than 5 means a bit more.

2 - Maybe only subscribers can create Board threads, or there is a limit to on how many a non-subscriber can create. Of course, everyone can like and reply/comment.

3 - a bit more involved - what about, while still keeping everything to one post a week, we get more choices than ignore or like a post. What if there was a "consider for Top Ten" button AND a like button. Just a random thought. Can you tell that I like back-button focus? Decouple the shutter release from the autofocus. Is there a difference between liking something and saying, "this should be top!". Also, what if the feature that Pro members get is that their likes/consider-for-top counted 2x or 1.5x or something. The perk for subscribing is that, if you choose to fund this site, you should get a bigger say in the kinds of things that get rewarded here.

Andrew Bailey on

@Nisah Cheatham Fantastic ideas. I especially like the gallery comment notion. I'll be interested to see what Ken thinks. Hopefully, he won't see this as needless grousing. I tried to make my particular gratitude for his creation clear.

And I intend to become a subscriber shortly. I won't use the Rehunt when I do, until that's addressed, but it doesn't dampen my interest in this venture taking off.
I meant to subscribe a while ago and just let it slip my mind. That's what dealing with contractors can do...and I do think the gallery needs a boost and, at the very least, letting subscribers comment is one that appeals.

I do go to other galleries, as you know. And I've found a number of photos I like there that I never saw in the thread, moving in and out as time allows. Very good idea to draw eyes to it. Maybe some who are less certain about putting one of their shots on the runway, so to speak, would find that a more palatable way to express themselves.

Also, in the absence of adopting my color notion, it would be easy enough to have "Patron" beside the name of the poster, in bold. Maybe some goofy icon beside that, like a golden shield. Hey, who doesn't like a special notice?

All this brings another question to mind: What happens when things really pick up? How does anyone get more than a glimpse?

Maybe, at that point, the individual categories are on the main menu, and you jump in and out of them, to see what is catching interest in various subsets, like Portrait or Landscape, etc., instead of having all photos in one thread.

And maybe Ken could use that main point of entry to highlight a few photos, at weeks end, for everyone to see. And maybe Patrons could chime in there (though the choices shouldn't be all-Patrons) and vote for the best of the week?

Thanks for your thoughts on the point. It might be a non-issue with most. I don't know, but it bothered me a little (and made me feel a bit better about a couple of photos that died on the vine). Not enough to discourage me from participating, or to stop me from subscribing, but enough that I felt it needed airing. Thanks again.

Ken Deckinger on

@Nisah Cheatham 🙏🏼 for your continued support and feedback!

Ken Deckinger on

@Nisah Cheatham just a little note to let you know I've read all your comments here and that (a) I've got 'em logged into my list of things to think about and (b) I appreciate them and you. 🙏🏼